Episode 19: Raven
[00:00:00] Welcome back to birds of a feather talk together. We're finishing up the spooky season with another spooky bird. The Raven. We've done a little bit of a Halloween theme this month with our bloodsucker episode, the shoe bill episode. And now we'll close out the month talking about Ravens. Edgar Allen Poe made Ravens famous and associated them with evil and representing death.
But they also happen to be one of the most intelligent and interesting birds around, they actually impersonate other bird calls, but could they actually learn to say the word Nevermore? Here with John and Shannon have to say, when they discuss Ravens with Amanda and I. Okay, go get your binoculars and let's get started.
RJ: welcome back, everyone. So continuing with our, uh, our Halloween theme, for this month, we're going to talk about the Raven today. So I don't know, I don't know a lot about Ravens aside from kind of creepy folklore and what Edgar Allen Poe has told us. So we're excited to learn more. [00:01:00] We never more.
So one question kind of off the bat, I are Raven and Ravens and crows. Are they. One and the same. Is it a type of crow? I know that they're highly intelligent animals, both, ravens and crows. But what's kind of the difference between a raven and a crow?
Shannon: Well, they're not, each other's, they're, they're not nested within each other or anything like
RJ: They're not? Okay. Ravens
Shannon: are
big versions of crows, but they're not the same species or
RJ: Really?
Shannon: anything like that. Ravens are kind of like almost the song of my childhood. 'cause sometimes I think there are more ravens and crows where I was growing up and. And I don't find them spooky.
RJ: And I don't
Shannon: No. Do you think it's because they're black? Is that why people, like, black cats, that people find them
RJ: I
think so. I think it might just be like kind of the way you're raised. Other people tell you it's creepy. Maybe if you're exposed to them more. Because from where you're from, Shannon, you saw them all the
Shannon: it, they call it a murder of crows. So that is [00:02:00] spooky and creepy in and of itself, I suppose. I don't know. What is
Amanda: a group of ravens? Yeah. Okay.
Shannon: I don't know.
Amanda: not like homicide or
Shannon: I mean, I guess, you know, whatever I think is not relevant because they are symbols in a lot of cultures of, of death. And so that they have that
Amanda: Right.
John: So they're part of this very large family called the Corvidae, and it's a really successful family.
And meaning they, um, are on islands all over the world. Um, ravens themselves, common raven, the one we're talking about, is a, is a very temperate bird, north, north temperate, so they're found up at higher latitudes, and they go all the way up to, to basically the Bering Sea, um, in Alaska, as far north as you can get.
And, [00:03:00] uh, so they're, I like to think of them for how... successful. They are. They have a huge range and they're all over the old world, too. And it's the same species,
Shannon: Well,
John: depending on your taxonomy. They're genetically distinct. And yeah, but
they're also considered to be this group of birds is considered to be the smartest group of birds that we know of.
And that's because they've been brought into captivity and shown that they can solve all kinds of complex puzzles that, that other birds can't. And so they're, they're incredibly interesting birds in that sense. And, you know, I think that could be a little spooky. I mean, and, and they're more than willing to do things like, I mean, they're, they're kind of scavengers and, uh, opportunistic birds, so they'll
Shannon: Yeah,
John: Go in and on
Shannon: side of the road sticking their head inside of [00:04:00] something dead.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah. They'll go after other birds nestlings if the nest is unattended. Um, you know,
Shannon: Yeah, you don't turn your back on a, on a crow or raven
if you're
a breeding bird, because they're very good at what they do. They have huge vocal repertoires. They can mimic the, uh,
there's
a study that just was published looking at brain size and complexity of vocalizations.
And it, it turns out that ravens do, you know, they have large brains for their body size, even if you correct for relationships. Um, they, They just, they do. So this behavioral flexibility, these, they, they can do things that we only thought humans could do. They can not just problem solve, but they can store items and use them later.
So it's, they see something, it has a use in their mind. It has a [00:05:00] use, but they're not going to use it right away. And it's not food, but they might barter with it or trade with another bird, with some kind of trinket. They. pick up colored, weird colored things, this is, goes across the family, they, they, they're very curious, like intensely curious, uh, which is probably one of the reasons why their brains are so large and you should not be afraid of calling, being called a bird brain.
I always tell people this now because crows, corvids, have the same density of neurons as higher primates. So these things can do things that chimps and, and orangutans can do. Not just, and that's, you know, they recognize themselves. They recognize others.
they,
can do all kinds of
really complex behaviors, which is, makes them completely fascinating.
RJ: And can they, they use tools as well? Like they've figured out, that's something that's unique to, I mean, Ravens, right?
I
John: mean, not entirely, but I [00:06:00] think as
Shannon: Darwin's finches, Darwin's finches use tools too.
John: But the mentality in how they're using
them, I think, is at a different level compared to what Darwin's finches would do.
Shannon: Yeah, they have a plan.
RJ: Okay.
Shannon: you give them things and a puzzle they've never seen, they'll figure it out.
You
don't have to demonstrate it for them. They'll figure out how to pull out sticks and, Get the food that comes out and they don't even have to have a reward. The challenge of just doing things is enough, uh, for these birds.
They play, um, they, there's hilarious videos of them purposefully sliding down snow banks and sliding down roofs and it's really clear. Even though I'm anthropomorphizing a
Amanda: it's
Shannon: it's really clear that they're playing. And the scientists who have studied them say that that's indeed what they're doing. So there's a large part of play that [00:07:00] is why they are, can problem solve.
Um, you know, that's what kids do. They play, they experience their world through, through that play and they get more sophisticated as they get older because they have experiences in that play world.
RJ: Wow.
Shannon: And
So,
crows and ravens are.
Amanda: them, Ha ha ha
ha ha! So, I want, I wanted to go back. I want to steal a question that RJ brought up on the train down here. So, going back to what you were saying about Shana, Shana about, um, their vocalizations. And we were wondering, could
a raven actually say, nevermore?
John: I wonder if one has ever been taught to do that.
That's
Shannon: If I had to bet, I would bet yes,
but,
RJ: good question.[00:08:00]
Amanda: yes.
Shannon: because they are so, they mimic a lot of other things. They have huge repertoires of vocalizations.
John: which which is funny because they, I would
Shannon: might not use them in their, most of their
John: their real life,
In real life they, they,
they,
they don't use them particularly.
That's not, you know, every once in a while you'll hear kind of some gurgling stuff, but, but.
Shannon: Yeah, I wouldn't put anything past a raven.
RJ: So when they're mimicking other bird calls, are they just doing it for their own, like a, like it's a puzzle? Like they're trying to mimic something, or are they doing it to impersonate them, or how do...
John: so
I don't, so, so mimicry is an interesting thing because there are lots of different birds that mimic. And once again, I would say that with crows, I don't think them doing it for any purpose other than the fact that, They can and like they have the capacity. They figured out the capacity to do it. So it's, it's almost like sliding down a [00:09:00] snowbank in the sense that they've got the metal capacity to do it.
They're, they're, they're definitely, uh,
beyond a lot of other birds in terms of that metal capacity, which is one of the reasons why it makes them so interesting. One thing I wanted to point out is that here in the Midwest and Chicago, you've got to go up to, uh, northern central Minnesota, northern Wisconsin to, to actually get into the range of, of uh, common ravens.
So, In the west, they come all the way down into Arizona through the Rocky Mountains up in the high elevations. And in the east, they're in the Appalachians. Um, and their numbers have varied quite a bit. But one of the interesting things in both those southern parts of those mountainous areas on either side of the country is that, that they've, uh, also started to come down into lower elevations and even move into urban areas.[00:10:00]
And, you know, that's, uh, something that's happened in the last 20, 25 years or so. And so that's, uh, it's interesting that even as smart as these birds are, they clearly have had a lot of trepidation about being around humans to a large extent in the
Shannon: Well, that might be smart.
John: That might
Amanda: Yeah.
Shannon: Yeah.
ravens are pretty amazing.
Did you guys see pictures of them anting?
Amanda: No.
Shannon: So they, um, and crows do this too. They will let, they'll stand by an anthill and let ants crawl on their feathers. And, um,
you know, there's lots of reasons why people think that might happen. But it might be because the, The things that the ants spew out, the formic acid, things like that, are, keep other things away from them so that they don't get bit by as many mosquitoes and other, other things like [00:11:00] that.
But there are these really weird pictures of them having ants crawl over their body. They might, they might, um, snap the ant and rub the ant. bodies on them,
which
Amanda: my
Shannon: clearly them trying to put chemicals onto their, uh, onto their feathers. So maybe that keeps mites away or other things that you don't want necessarily crawling all over, all over you.
But the idea of going and standing by an anthill and letting those things crawl all over
RJ: You
Shannon: You know, but there are, because they're black, so the images are really, well, okay, so ravens are
Amanda: long.
Yeah, Shannon comes around. She's coming
John: around.
They're
also kind of amazing from a standpoint of their ability to live in really in hospital areas. So, I remember as a kid, They used to publish, the Audubon Society used to publish this Christmas bird count summary of all the Christmas [00:12:00] bird counts. And one of the ones I would always look up because it would always be interesting was one at the far north, northern tip of Alaska in Point Barrow.
And they would go out there and they would, they have like a couple hours, it's dark there in the winter. And so there's not much you can do, but they would go out and have, I don't know, six hours by, Uh, snowmobile or something, and the only birds they would see would be a couple of ravens. And so, you know, here's this, you know, they're, they're capable of living in a lot of different places.
Shannon: And they're very long lived too, for a songbird. You know, I think I read in Captivity, the oldest one they know of is 60, was 69 years old.
Amanda: Oh my
Shannon: super old. Parrot kind of old. I doubt that that's all that common, but they are, um, a lot more long lived than you might think some songbirds are. So they're also In the same part of the tree of life for [00:13:00] birds as birds of paradise are, um, and even though crows are really cool, they did not, you know, branch out into the land of unbelievable feathers or anything like that.
But, but their brains are really
John: So when you say that, you know, I think crows and mag pies and some of the js and stuff are
Shannon: well, the Jays, but, but not Ravens themselves. I mean,
there's
John: that's true. Ravens are
Shannon: and on them and
John: and black.
No, and and you know, there's an interesting thing too. It's like, what's the benefit of being an all black bird like that?
RJ: Hmm.
Shannon: Yeah. If you live in a dead, hot desert too, why that's not such a good thing.
RJ: Yeah. It's to creep people out.
Yeah.
John: Yeah. There you go.
Shannon: Yeah.
Amanda: thing prey on crows. Like, I'm wondering, is there some advantage
Shannon: Yeah, West Nile virus preys on crows.
John: so ravens are big enough that I don't think they get preyed on, but I mean, no, but, but, but when you said that, what I was thinking about is an old [00:14:00] article I remember reading where Crow will mob things and Ravens would do some of this too, and.
They were mobbed, there was a, the person was watching them mob a great horned owl. And most of the time that drives a great horned owl off, and in this particular case, the great horned owl reached out and grabbed one of the crows and killed it. And, I mean, that shut up everybody
Amanda: else.
John: And so, you know, you can imagine, yeah.
Shannon: I mean, they can, their, their vocalizations, they can deceive birds, they can make alarm calls that are not because of an alarm, but. Maybe it's part of play behavior too, right? You know, the way little kids will learn how to lie, and it's a sign of brain development when they can do that. Also
Amanda: know,
RJ: Also
Shannon: Yeah.
John: I guess we are coming in on the creepy side, but I, there's, there's, I feel like you know, they're considered mystical animals by [00:15:00] a lot of Native American tribes and I think that's Kind of well earned by sort of, I guess you could call it the spookiness, but just kind of the otherworldly aspect of their calls and things like that.
And so...
They
Shannon: follow people. If they think you're doing something that's benefit them, they'll follow you.
RJ: how creepy.
John: how creepy. So...
Shannon: you know.
John: Doing what a raven does.
Shannon: That's right, because they're smart and their brains are really evolved. Can
Amanda: really evolving. Should we get
RJ: Should we get into a mailbag question? Sure. Okay. This is funny because Shannon, you talked about bird brains, earlier in this episode and this person is talking about bird brains as well. So this is from, uh, Poppy from Louisville, Kentucky, um, and she says in one of your episodes, Shannon talked about how the term bird brain should be a compliment because birds are so smart.
This is very in tune with our episode. Can you go into more detail on how smart birds are? Also, I think bird brain [00:16:00] would be a great name for fans of the podcast. What do you think?
I don't know.
Shannon: I, I'll view that as a compliment because that's what I tell everybody. So if you look at one of the ways you can measure brain capacity is by looking at the density of neurons per given space.
And crows and ravens, corvids in general, have a much higher, um, number of neurons per given space than other birds do. And in this case, it approaches what you see in chimpanzees and other higher primates. And so, that is a lot of brain capacity trapped in a very small space. And so, birds aren't
I don't know.
Where did that birdbrain thing come from? Not from people who
John: spent Chickens.
Shannon: Well, that could be true. Not from people who spent time around crows or ravens. That's not going to come from
there.
RJ: going to go with. Uh
Shannon: don't know. I should have looked that up. The [00:17:00] whole, where did birdbrain come
John: from?
I was, I,
I'm always reminded by a, uh, Short piece in a, in a nature documentary where they were talking, they were showing how good members of the Corte were at solving various puzzles.
And they got to the end and they had a common raven and they said, let's compare what the common raven can do to, to some other animals. And they pulled out these two standard poodles, and
who
Shannon: are thought to be smart right poodles are thought to be really
John: smart
and they. Did what we've been talking about?
Which they, they showed the Raven how to do a puzzle and they pulled the same puzzle out and they showed the dogs how to do it. And it was a completely unfair thing because the Raven, of course, 30 seconds later, it's gone through and redone this puzzle and gotten whatever the reward was. And that the dogs just sat there and looked
at it.
And, but, but I loved it because it, it kind [00:18:00] of highlighted, like. Dogs are definitely not that smart when it comes down to things and, and they're not necessarily problem solvers in most situations. There's eight males
Amanda: There's some hate mail right
RJ: there
John: Yeah, I know, I know.
Shannon: Well, I mean, it
has to do with the fact that humans have messed with the dogs, right? So these breeds of dogs are bred for particular
John: things.
I'm I'm not, I'm not saying coyotes could do any better in those puzzles.
Amanda: too
Shannon: They'd be scarier.
Amanda: or anything.
Shannon: I don't know. So it's really hard because humans don't want that from you. You don't want your dog. That's why people have. They're freaked out about cats, because, you know, you want a dog to be loyal, so it's very good at the things, or it might be very good at hunting, or finding ducks, or something
John: going to point out, a cat would not solve that puzzle either.
Shannon: Yeah, the cat would just destroy the puzzle and say, whatever.
Amanda: it Yeah, Alright,[00:19:00]
John: at least try to.
Shannon: Yeah,
that's That's pretty funny.
I like that idea.
Amanda: love it.
John: I'm all for it.
RJ: that a good place to call it then. John, do you want to close it out?
John: Yeah, let's, uh, let's.
We need more bird brains. Yeah, let's
RJ: Yeah, let's get some bird brains.
Thanks everyone for listening. Real quick. I just wanted to end the show talking about one of my favorite Raven scenes in movies and TV. There's an episode of Sopranos. I'm sure we've got some Sopranos fans out there. Where Christopher is being initiated into the mob. During initiation, he looks out the window and he sees a Raven looking into the window, right. As he's getting his finger pricked, it's such a funny scene and he's such a headcase. And then after that, who has a more tragic story arc than Christopher?
And does seeing the Raven allows them to be more [00:20:00] self-destructive. It gives them an excuse to go off the rails. Or to seeing the Raven actually cursing. It's so well-written, we love that show. He had to mention this on our Raven episode. If Michael Imperioli David Chase or Steven van Zandt ever want to talk birds with us, we'd be thrilled.
Okay, happy Halloween, everyone. See you next time. Bird, brains.
